#3: Eric Dahl (Elite Backcountry Skier) - Balancing Family and Skiing Alaskan Peaks

Was skiing below the fixed lines, trying to go check out. Rescue, golly, ironically, got kind of complacent on the mountain. It's a big mountain. We spend a lot of day. It's in big terrain and all kinds of start to look like home. Had something break above me and a rope team before we got off the glacier, so we were all roped together, came down, swept all three of us while we were roped together and took a thousand foot slide and we were all partially buried. That was one that has stuck with me and this changed my wrist tolerance as a person, like since that date. There was like before that wrist tolerance and then after that wrist tolerance.

Welcome to the Athlete Dad Podcast, where we explore the intersection between physical pursuits and fatherhood. I'm your host Ben Gibson. If you are an ambitious dad that is pursuing or looking to pursue your athletic passions now while improving the way you show up at home, then we have a great show for you. This episode is a conversation with Eric Doll, d a h l. You can find Eric on Instagram at Eric d a h l underscore ak, and I highly recommend you go check him out on Instagram because his pictures of his skiing in Alaska are incredible. Eric is one of the first people that came to mind when I created the athlete dad. He is a highly accomplished skier and Alaska native, and I was just struck by how awesome and challenging many of his ski pursuits were in some of these remote. Areas of Alaska. But despite those many accomplishments, it's a skier. Something Eric always kept at the forefront was his family, his wife, and his two young boys. And I think Eric really epitomizes what I think of when I think of an ambitious dad that's working to model healthy ambition through the pursuit of his passions, while balancing family responsibilities to show up as an incredible dad and husband, and someone that finds ways to integrate his family into his passions. And something that I know many of you will appreciate is that Eric doesn't get paid to ski. Eric has a full-time job as a teacher outside of his pursuits as a skier. This means he has to work. Extra hard around a full-time work schedule to continue to pursue his skiing of big lines and long days in the Alaskan backcountry. Now we go deep on some of the details of his skiing accomplishments, including skiing on Denali, the tallest peak in North America twice. We talk a lot about risk and how risk tolerances can evolve as we become husbands and fathers, especially as Eric has had some terrifying avalanche stories that he'll share. We discuss a lot about how he finds balance with his goals and his pursuits and how he creatively finds ways to bring his family into the mix as well. Now, if you are interested in improving how you balance your goals and your family and want some detailed advice on how to do so, or you want to hear some incredible stories about big climbing and skiing days on Alaskan Peaks, then you are going to love this episode. We'll include all the pictures and info about specific climbs, equipment, mountains, and resources in the show notes, and so without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Eric Doll. So I'm super pumped to talk to you today. You've gotta go check out the pictures of a lot of the things that we're gonna talk about today, because my descriptions are not at all gonna do it justice for some of the amazing climbing and skiing that Eric gets to. Um, Eric is a rad dad, if there ever was one. He is a, an Alaska native out of Anchorage, and most importantly Eric is a dad. Two young boys, Finch and Ovie husband to his wife Shoshana. And when Eric isn't being a dad husband or working, you can find him climbing and skiing these huge lines in the mountains of Alaska. Eric has put up some some amazing accomplishments in terms of his outdoor endeavors. Eric has climbed and skied Denali twice, which is no small feat. Denali obviously the tallest peak in North America over 20,000 feet and way, way out there. It's a very remote peak to get to. He is routinely climbing and skiing. Some of the most beautiful peaks that many of us in the lower 48 that ski or do any outdoor adventures would consider a dream trip. And I'm super excited to hear from you, Eric. Cause unlike some of the dads, we'll hear from, you know, None of us get paid to ski. I don't, I don't think it, you, you get paid to ski and so you have a full-time job. You have full-time responsibilities. And so it's even more challenging to strike that balance between physical pursuits and family. And especially with two young kids under three years old. You're right in the thick of it, man. So, Eric, without further ado, I'm super pumped. Thanks for coming onto the show.

Yeah, thanks for having me. That's quite the introduction. Uh, making me blush a little bit, uh, hard to hear accomplishments out loud, at least for me. A little, little bit of a. Flattering a little imposter syndrome when you come on something called the athletic dad and you think of all these amazing athletes that I know or look up to and you're like, whoa, am I really qualified for that? But no, I appreciate it. Thanks again for having me.

Yeah, man. Absolutely. And I think, uh, yeah, what I've learned, especially, you know, looking a lot of your posts is like the more casual and humble somebody is in, in what they share, the, the more rad you know that they are and some of the stuff that you've been up to lately. And one thing I want to ask you about, um, is, is just incredible. So you had this great share over Easter weekend and I just thought the contrast of it was just so cool. So you had on one. Picture you climbing up and doing some skiing, and then the other picture was, uh, the two kids. Can you, can you tell me about kind of what was Easter weekend looking like for you in, in terms of the contrast of those two events? Yeah, I think it was, uh,

yeah, the Easter, so just a couple weeks ago, I, I thankfully have a very, uh, understanding and supportive partner who allows me typically to get out one day on the weekend to pursue my passions, which is back country skiing. So I had, uh, we did Easter on Saturday with family here in town, the young boys and wife and, uh, my folks are up here and her folks. And so we all got together and had Easter on Saturday, had a nice brunch, and then Sunday it was call up the friends that I usually get out with and what can we get into? What's the stability? Like, where, where can we get to that we can kind of get rad or get a little scary, um, but in a, in a way that we can make it home in time for dinner. So, I

love that. Yeah. Get rad and then get home. That's, uh, I think the biggest goal too I have here too is like, you know, striking those balances more and more. Like, I find it interesting almost like, uh, an additional part of what makes something challenging is like, can I get up early and do something really cool in the mountains and then also be at home and, and almost like, you know, jumping into the phone booth as Superman and going back into dad mode. So, um, yeah, man, that's really cool. I, I'm curious, you know, what, generally when you think about dad life or personal and personal life, you know, what, what's getting you excited right now? Like, what, what are you excited about at home? And then what are you excited about when it comes to these outdoor sports of yours?

Um, so home is definitely the oldest who just turned two. He is absolutely like toddler talking. We're biking, we're skiing. He can like start to pick up on some of the pursuits that like I'm into and it doesn't feel forced, like, Hey, let's go for two minutes and take a picture. Like mm-hmm. We can actually go do these things for an amount of time. Yeah. Uh, that seems meaningful. Um, so that's, that's the really exciting part for me is that oldest one really get into it and the younger one's starting to do things he is about to crawl. So that's exciting, um, as well. So on the family side, that's what kind of keeps me going. Right now I'm a teacher as well for elementary school students, so we're coming up on summer break and just having that idea of a couple months off in a row with just the kids and the wife is pretty exciting. Uh, personally, we're kind of wrapping up here in the next month or so. Like my favorite time of year from a, uh, recreation standpoint is mm-hmm. Spring skiing. I mean, I'll ski probably till the end of June, but the big objectives. Locally that are like day trips, kind of tail off as we get into May. So been really lucky kind of from the beginning of March until now, and going forward the next week or two to have ticked off a couple lines that I'm really excited about and then looking forward to hopefully maybe one trip into June, um, as well. Something big, maybe a little bit farther north.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, so lots of great stuff going on with the kids and more lines to tick off. I, I'm curious, like what, what, when you think of, um, locally that you still want to get to this year. Like what, what comes top of mind for you?

Oh, so, so there's a big one here out in GaN arm. It's one that a lot of people have skied it. You can actually access most of the approach on snow machines. So it's not like some first descent or anything, but it's one of the largest ones you can view from the road. And that's Carpathian kind outta the Portage Valley. I've walked back to it three separate times and it's. Turned around all three, and it's a 20 plus mile day. So to get back there, you know, six hours and then say, Hey, the conditions aren't right and I need to be home to my family and I can't push it or risk it, I need to pull the plug and then walk six hours back, three separate times and not get it. That's pretty high on my list right now. Just, I don't care if it's clean, I don't care If it looks good, I want to get back there, ski it safely and just tick that one off so I don't have to think about it anymore. What, what

made you turn around the other times? Just conditions weren't right or what was going on there.

Yeah, so all three times have been abbey condition related. So a lot of these bigger lines, it's like make sure, like if it slides you die kind of thing. Mm-hmm. So the, there's not a lot of margin. It's not like, oh, maybe if something pops I'll get taken off my feet. But I, you know, it's a lot of like, if this doesn't work, The outcome is dead. And that's like a, a non-starter for me. Sure. So it's like, I don't know, maybe one of those days we could've skied it and got away with it. But I know at least on one of the trips we were standing there hoeing and humming and then we're like, I think it's getting pretty wind loaded and you can see the ivy conditions deteriorating. And then sure enough, the face, we were considering slides right in front of you. Mm-hmm. You're like, well that makes the decision easy. Like, let's go home.

Yeah. Gosh, it's hard. I mean, especially as goals get bigger and, you know, objectives get more complex. Like, there's a lot of humming and Han and, uh, is it gonna go, I don't know, I, where have I seen this before? And yeah, it's nice that the decision was made easily for you with, with how that went. So, I, I wanna step back a little bit and give, uh, some context on kind of like what a lot of these objectives look like for you. So we talked about you've climbed and skied Denali twice. Um, like what are some other like big accomplishments that you've done on the mountains that really stand out to you and what, what makes them special?

So I'm not like some world-class mountaineer by any means, Denali. I had to kind of almost get tricked into like, and then from there kind of turned into a little bit of a mountaineer. Um, I wasn't very interested, but I was on a different, um, couple week expedition in the Arctic Refuge with some friends from college and they're like, Hey, do you wanna do Denali? And I was like, no, no interest. And then they said, okay, well what if we try to ski it? I was like, oh, that's an option.

Oh, here's prick up.

Wait, yeah, wait a minute. What does that entail? And, you know, doing a little research and stuff. And so, um, as far as big multi-day stuff like Denali is one. Um, it's not gnarly by any means, but Sanford I did last year, which is a fairly large but straightforward one here in the wrangles. Um, and then I've kind of turned my attention, especially as I have two young kids now as shorter trips, but maybe, uh, I would say, More challenging lines. Mm-hmm. Because on Denali, I was skiing just the west buttress the most common route, pretty mellow terrain. Mm-hmm. Um, and whereas like if I can do a trip here now, it's probably a day for the climb. That's the goal is whatever, climb only takes a day. Mm-hmm. But it might have big cliff hazard, a big AVI hazard, or steepness or glacier travel, just different complexities to make it more interesting than just kind of a what you typically think of in a ski

run. Yeah. A and to give people context, like when you're talking big, like what, what does big mean to you?

So I would say probably the average big line that we're looking at is anywhere between 2000 and 3000 feet here in the Chuga. Um, at least on the Western Chuga where we are. Uh, if you went over to Valdez, you might find some bigger stuff, but just kind of based where I'm at. Mm-hmm. A 2000, 3000 foot line is probably what we're looking at. Um mm-hmm. Which is not monstrous by any means, but if you can put, you know, a choke here, a cliff there or something interesting involved in it, I think it can, uh, make it feel bigger maybe.

Yeah. And I think the steepness can't be understated. Like some of these peaks are fairly steep and then you have pretty long approaches to get to them. There was one, um, I think it was the malignant cool wire, if I'm recalling correctly. Uh, tell me about just the, the, like logistics of that. Like how, how many miles did that take? Like what was the total, you know, uh, effort that went into climbing and skiing that

Yeah, so that, yeah, that, thanks for bringing that one up. I don't know how that slipped my mind. That's probably one of my most proud descents. Uh, we skied it last year. Again, not like a first descent or anything. It's been skied plenty by local rippers. Um, but it's done typically as an overnight or sled access, so snow machine out to the base of it. Mm-hmm. And. I don't have a sled and I don't really have the time to stay overnight every weekend. So I approached a buddy and said, Hey, would it be crazy if we went and tried to ski this in a day? And he's like, oh, great. What's the mileage? And I said, I don't know. I haven't really looked at a map. And so he mapped it out and it was going to be about 30 plus miles round trip, um, with something close to 10,000 foot elevation game throughout the day to ski like a 3000 foot colar. That's roughly between I 45 and 55 degrees in steepness. Mm-hmm. And with sections that are narrow enough that we down climbed one of them and had to like side slip through the other because your skis wouldn't fit through it. Hmm. Um, so some big, uh, some big potential hazards I guess if things went south. But sure. A lot of that day was just accessing it. So we left the trailhead around. Three, four in the morning and it was started with a seven mile ski across a lake, which we skated with our backcountry gear on. So like, imagine skate skiing on CrossCountry skis just with heavy backcountry gear. And then bush whacked up a valley that we thought would go, but we didn't really have any information on it. We were just like, I think we can get through these trees. And so kind of figured that up through the valley, kind of climbed this valley and over a pass that we didn't know was gonna be wind loaded or not. Thankfully it wasn't. But you know, we're like 10 miles into a day at now, a pass that we hope is good and happen to be good. And we get to the bottom of the line at 4:00 PM before climbing, and I have a check-in time with the wife at 6:00 PM mm-hmm. So it was a, it was a pretty quick inReach to say, Hey, I'm gonna be a little late getting home tonight. Um, we're 15 miles back in the middle of nowhere and we haven't even started. Climbing our line yet.

Wow, that's awesome. And it's, it's gotta be, it's not even just like the physical fatigue that I imagine, but like the mental fatigue of all the uncertainty of like, Trying to assess terrain and figure out the row and kind of like all of this with heavy gear as you're making your way in. Um, so did you end up going up that night and skiing down and then trekking back? Or how, how did the rest of the trip unfold? So

we ended up climbing up, I think we topped out around 6:00 PM I cannot take credit for breaking that trail up. I was kind of bonking pretty hard. Uh, luckily the partner I ski a lot with is in a little bit better physical shape than I am. He took lead as I was kind of tanking there in the middle of the klar. Um, but we busted up to the top and topped out around six, skied it, and then we skinneded all the way back. And it, well, he didn't get back to the car till about one in the morning. It was like an 18 hour day, 35 miles as was our final total. And just over 10,000 feet. And, and how soon

before you did this trip, did you, did the idea come to you? Had it always been kind of like back of your mind, like, I'd love to get to this or it's, or did it come together pretty quickly? So

the line itself I'd seen in photos from other local people's blogs and stuff, and then I got to see it in person skiing a valley closer in the past and been like, oh wow, I see why everybody would love to ski this line. I can see why the access is just kind of a pain. Like I think that's the bigger issue is accessing it stings. Yeah. Um, but then kind of came back from a spring break with a family trip and had spent a week not skiing and had a great time in Hawaii with the boys, but was feeling really thirsty by the time I got home. And yeah, some conditions just looking at the weather were lining up and reached out to a friend just after work on a Friday and said like, so what if we tried this tomorrow? Yeah. And in the matter of a couple hours he's like, yeah, let's go for it. And I, you know, I think it works because I've got. Uh, just a handful of people I ski with for the last couple years, and having that kind of support network and group of people that, you know, you trust in the mountains, you got, you're on the same page risk tolerance wise and assessment wise, it's really easy to just kind of throw it together in that sense because of the familiarity we have with each other.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and it doesn't have, doesn't hurt to have friends that, uh, are down for a 30 mile excursion on, uh, kind of a last minute notice. So that's pretty awesome too. I've always found that like, uh, there's this, I don't know if it's just the stereotype with, with people in the outdoors, but when somebody asks like, yeah, how long is it? And you're like, ah, I don't know. It's not that far. It's like usually pretty significant, so yeah, it's not, it's not so bad, you know, it's just 10,000 feet, 30 miles. That's awesome. You, you mentioned, you know, having community and, you know, friends that you climb with, I, I'm curious like. You know, I, what I found in my experience too is it's like what makes it hard in a lot of ways to continue to pursue goals like this, or even just to continue to pursue things you love outdoors is kind of dependent on, like, do I have other friends that are parents who like, get it? Like how, how many of your friends or people in your community that do these things are also dads and like, how, how does that like help in these types of situations?

Sure. So like in the Anchorage community as a whole, there's in a ton of rad dads. Like, I kind of wanna state again, like I'm kind of, I view myself as kind of an average dude up here. Like Alaska has, is like the home base for rad skiers and climbers and everything. So, um, no, there's a bunch of dads I know, but as far as my, my partners and the people I'm getting out with, um, I was kind of the first. Dad, I guess with them in the immediate friend group. Mm-hmm. So then I've got all these friends who wanna see me skiing and doing things still and then are wildly supportive. They're like, oh yeah, they come see the kids, they want to know how they are. And then when I'm like, Hey, I can't go because I got a dad, they're like, yeah, cool. I get it. Like we don't have to do that. Sure, go do your thing. It certainly helps to

have the friends that are, that are already parents, but definitely helps to have the ones that, you know, understand that dynamic and pee, be a little more flexible with it. So, um, and I feel you on feeling very average. Like I, you know, I'll go out on, I'm in Bend, Oregon and I, I'll put up some stuff that's in no way remarkable but like remarkable for me more so, cuz I'm like newly, I'm now, I now live at the mountains where I can do this stuff more regularly. Um, but I'll do something that's, you know, not remarkable but like pretty cool to me. And then there's these other dudes out here that like, there's a guy called Super Frenchy and he's like, Climbing and paragliding off the peaks and then skiing down and he's just doing this on like all the other neighboring peaks. And uh, yeah, it makes it look like I'm like wobbling with like baby deer legs on my skis doing some of this stuff. So I definitely feel you there. That's,

I mean, our saying up here is like, is if there's no day, you're doing the coolest thing. Yeah. If you think you're doing the coolest thing, there's a dude one valley further, or like one peak higher. Like you just never doing the coolest

thing. There's always something, man. But you know, it's, it's interesting. I think that a lot of it too, and, and especially becoming a dad, like you mentioned, like you've already kind of had to think about what can I do, uh, time wise, risk wise, difficulty wise, resource wise, like what, what can I do with, with some constraints? Um, and a lot of it is like constraints that we are like, happy to have to red. Like I wouldn't trade my family to go do more crazy shit in the mountains. Like I, I, I want that responsibility and I'm, I'm okay with the constraints. It, it puts on things. Um, but yeah, I think it, it, it re. Kind of shifts your focus into, into like within this, within the confines of these limitations. Like I can still get pretty rad and I can still do a lot of things that give me that sense of fulfillment. So,

and I think just the, you're changing goals. Like, I don't know, I get some weird ones. Like there's a, the local first hike for every tourist is flat top peak here in Anchorage. Mm-hmm. And it is, the stats are pretty lame. It's not that high, it's not that hard. Everybody does it. But I wanted to do it from the house, which is like a weird goal that matters to no one. Right. But then I, like, I ran it from the house the other summer and it was like a pretty cool accomplishment. That was a handful of hours that I was like, sweet, that felt like. A check mark on some box that doesn't matter to anyone but me. So just having those goals shift and like getting creative with GI gives you that like fulfillment of whatever your like goal or mission or objective, whatever term you want to use, that like Yeah. Hits that box for you.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think in as many ways people are like, what if I did this that was a little higher or without oxygen or whatever it may be. You know, a lot of it is like, could I, could I ski this or could I hike this with a kid in the pack? You know? Yeah. Could I deal with like, I need to, I need to navigate snacks and breaks and letting them run around and all these other things. Right? There's, there's a whole lot of different, like, man, the complexity of logistics when doing things with kids is like next level, like expedition level

preparation. Yes. Your, your daily things and expedition, like your daily hike older than I know, I know you're doing Denali here soon, is it's more complex than prepping for that trip, right? Getting all the snacks and coordinated and everything. If you

can get your kids out the door in winter, like. That alone is a feat, like three layers of clothing. Everyone's got matching gloves. Like I, I am in awe sometimes that we actually get out the door to even do something sometimes. So yeah, it's, it's pretty remarkable. I think something I'm really excited to hear about is, is this idea of balance. You know, and I think you, you kind of have, have planted a couple seeds for, for certain things around how you have that balance in terms of like check-in times and you have a show who's very supportive of these things. Um, I, I'm curious from a personal standpoint, cuz this is the part that I mess up the most like, and I think. Kind of, it's, the struggle is inevitable when, again, we have new challenges of responsibilities and kids, and like, we also wanna show up as great dads and great husbands and partners. And like, we don't want these things to come at the expense of our families. So like, invariably in the pursuit of bigger things, more complex things, like we're gonna drop the ball. And I think I, I dropped the ball quite a bit, especially on my bigger days. I'm, I'm certainly getting better at it, but like on my bigger training days or days that I'm gonna be out in the mountains for a long time, like, I'd say like, I'd give myself like a sea. Like it, maybe the coffee is made for everyone else. Maybe food is made for everyone else. Like maybe I cleaned up the house before I left and maybe I've even communicated like where I'm going that day. Maybe I charged the inReach so that I can be reachable. Like, and uh, so I know that these are, you know, kind of a common struggle. I, I'm curious like for you, um, and I think a lot of people can probably learn from. Failures or those really hard lessons when it comes to like, where we miss. So like what's, what's been really hard for you in terms of striking that balance and, and maybe some things of like, what have you found to work really well or what are some parts of that agreement with show that help her feel really good about giving you that, that freedom to go continue to ski?

Sure. So a little background is like, I'm big skier, like before we ever got together show and I mm-hmm. And she's not, and she's tried to pick it up over time, but it's never been her thing. Um, so we had to work through a lot of those. Check-ins, checks and balances before we even had kids. So we had a pretty good system before that, which is like, I leave a trip plan before I leave each day, who I'm going with, where I'm going, and a check-in time if I was gonna be late or to expect me to call by. And at first I was really bad at it cause I never had to be accountable to anybody. I just did what I wanted to do. Um, and that was a struggle, especially like, I can't imagine doing that and not having that before kids, because we had already ironed all that out. Before we had children. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, it became to the point where it's like I needed to have an inReach and I needed to have it on me every time because I was just missing check-ins. Mm-hmm. And for us, the ability to say, Hey, I'm okay, I'm just gonna be late, was huge. Cuz she'd have huge anxieties when I would miss a check-in and she'd have no way to reach me. Part of that's my history. Like, I had some close calls specifically on my first finale trip that put it in her mind that, you know, there would be a time where she wouldn't get ahold of me and then maybe never get ahold of me. You know? Yeah. Uh, so having that to always say, and I always have to like, I'm gonna be home or I'm late, I'm out of the, you know, the AVI risk or I'm late, I'm still in AbbVie terrain, but I'm gonna check in in an hour. Something along those lines just to calm the anxiety. Cuz that was the biggest stressor for us. US was just like, yeah. Anxiety over safety. Um, balancing it with kids, it's just been, uh, Sacrifice is the wrong word. Cause I think, like you said, you would not give up family life for anything, right? Mm-hmm. It is awesome. It is such a challenge, but it's awesome. But it's been cutting back on days for me. So I get one weekend day is kind of our agreement, and then that may change, right? Great green light weekend, maybe I get two, or we've got family stuff, I get none, you know? Mm-hmm. Life's a compromise. But typically I get a weekend day and then I have a standing, like Thursday night I can go resort skier, backcountry ski type of thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and the thing I've really struggled with balance is kind of the, the more mundane training. Mm-hmm. And like staying fit things. Yeah. Is like pelotons been my thing that's helped me the most because mm-hmm. You don't need much brain capacity. You either sit down on the bike or you lift the weights they tell you to, yeah. You can be zoned out, you can be spent, it can be morning, it can be night. So that's been nice for me, but. I've never been much of a gym person. I'd rather go play outside in the woods or in the mountains or something. So having that being more limited has been probably the biggest challenge from a balancing standpoint is changing how I like go about my fitness in an everyday mm sense of the word.

Especially, uh, as we get older. I don't know about you man, but uh, man, I feel the aches and pains if I don't like warm up properly. Like my Achilles right now is just, is so mad at me because I went running twice and I didn't stretch beforehand and it's like, I feel like my leg is about to separate. So yeah, the training aspect is, is interesting. So how, how do you, cuz you can't pull off a 30 mile day just coming off the couch, I imagine that there's some pretty rigorous training that goes, goes into that. Like is, is the shift now more that you're starting to focus more on gym stuff and as you're not getting to ski as much

or. I mean, ish, you can do some pretty amazing things being partially off the couch. And I think, no, and I think that comes from, I would say I am nowhere close to as fit as I was in my early twenties, right? Mm-hmm. But I can do a way bigger day than I could have done in my early twenties. And that, I think, is understanding, um, how endurance sports work, how you metabolize your food and your caloric intake and all those things. Like, I feel a lot more savvy in that sense, whereas like, you know, I've got a little bit of a dad gut going right now, and, but like I, I know I can put down a, you know, we just did a 25 mile loop, uh, and the TNAs a week ago. It's like, I know I can do mileage and my pace is gonna be fairly slow. Mm-hmm. I know I have to eat X amount of calories per hour, drink X amount of water. And I just know that like, if I pace myself through certain portions, I can stretch a day out pretty long. Um, but from a training standpoint, I'm just, especially winter, it's, I'm trying to do as much touring as possible because I've found that if I'm. Just lifting weights. Like I, I hit the weights hard this fall and lifted heavier than I had before. And then I got on the ski hill and felt strong but slow. I didn't really feel like an athlete. I'd done like a lot of power lifting type stuff and not power lifting, like, I don't know, heavy weights, low reps type stuff. Mm-hmm. And it just didn't translate the way I wanted it to. And it was a reminder that like, okay, I should be doing the things that I'm training for. And then if I'm not doing those things, try to mimic it as best I can. Mm-hmm. So like more tric type stuff for skiing and, um, some lower intensity, longer duration stuff. Like if I was gonna go on a bike, it should be long and pretty mellow, just like a long ski tour would be.

That makes a lot of sense. And for those not familiar ski touring, um, can you help us understand kind of what is the difference between ski touring versus like resort skiing?

Sure. So ski touring, you've got skis on your feet with skins on the bottom, and you are walking up the hill with these skis on your feet to. For every amount of feet that you wanna ski down, right? So you are typically walking for hours for one or two runs, right? Mm-hmm. So you've gotta, and it's not fast, right? Like if you've ever gone hiking, unless you're like some amazing mountain runner, you're like going up the hill at a pretty reasonable pace that you can manage all day. Mm-hmm. So same thing with ski touring, but now you're adding 10 pounds on your feet, another 20 pounds in your backpack, so you're, you're not moving very quick, but it's like an all day kind of constant walking, hiking pace. Mm-hmm. So, versus resort skiing, which is like incredibly dynamic, three, four minute stretches at a time, especially if you're kind of a free ride freestyle guy. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's a, that's something I've kind of struggled with. Cause that's where I come from. Resort skiing, flip spins, all that kind of like aggressive, um, plyometric, fast twitch muscle stuff. And then as I transition into ski touring is like, Realizing that the way I used to prep for ski season needed to change a little bit. Yeah. Because of ski touring being a completely different muscle group. Sure.

Yeah. Low and slow. I will say though, the only difference is that if, if somebody is, uh, if I'm skinning up and somebody is wearing spandex and they're skinning up, they're gonna be ripping up the mountain. Something, something about the spandex tells you that they're, they're serious. S schmo, that's probably more what it is, is they're like a schema racer with just absolutely zero weight in their skis and their boots, and they're just ripping up the mountain. That's the only other time I've seen that,

that's just, that's just mountain runners with sticks on their feet. That's a different, that's different.

That's not what we're doing. I remember the other day I was, uh, I was getting a training run. I was just doing some like ski laps and uh, skinning up. And this woman had passed me for like the sixth time and she had to be 65, 70, and she's just ripping. And I was like, Hey, what, how many laps are we doing today? And she's like, ah, I don't know, maybe 10, 12. And granted, every lap is like 1500 feet. And so this woman is just like, Casually just ripping like a 15,000 plus day. And she, like I said, she's like 65, 70. And I was like, what? What are we training for? Are we just out enjoying the mountain? She's like, I'm just just having a good time. And I'm like, wow. Like these are mountain people. This is insane. Like, and yeah, full on. Yeah, mountain runner with just the tiniest little sticks running up the mountain. So it was crazy. Um, I know you've done a couple things. Coming back to balance, you know, I've seen a, a picture of you, uh, at one time skiing with a, a kid in a pack. I know there's probably hikes with a kid in a pack. Like I'm, I'm curious, like, as the, especially as the kids get older, um, kinda what are ways that you're finding to bring them into the fold on some of these, and maybe even, it's not like you're physically out doing stuff, but maybe with Finch is he is getting a little, um, you know, able to kind of understand more about what dad's doing outdoors. You're kind of like storytelling or anything that you can think of as far as like how you're bringing family more into the fold on some of these things. Sure.

Yeah. So we, my wife and I have talked about it and as passionate as I am about skiing, like we would hope, I would hope that my kids are too, but also in a way that's not forced because like, it's not her thing. Like we're not gonna be the family that is forced to drive down Saturday and Sunday to go ski the hill every day. Yeah, maybe if I had my way, but that's probably not the reality of it. Um, it's more of like, I wanna introduce them to my passions. Make it fun every time they go. Yeah. And then hopefully they become their passions. And so at home, like when he started walking, we got him a little pair of indoor skis and has like felt on the bottom and a little binding so he could cruise around inside. And then when we got snow, he has a little trainer pair of cross-country skis and we just puts around and get'em comfortable on skis. He wore ski boots in the house a bunch this year. Um, but then, you know, I tried to take him to the hill this year and we'd go for five minutes and he'd say, dad, you know, all done. All done. And yeah, we were done. You know, we went home, had hot chocolate, make gummy beers. It was great. Um, so I just wanted to like, introduce them and make it exciting. And, you know, he knows that I'm out skiing on the days I'm gone long, like mom's talked about it. He has enough understanding. Dad ski. Dad ski. And then when I get home he wants to see pictures and videos show me dad ski. Yeah. And so I show him what we did that day and. That makes him interested cuz then he, you know, there'll be a day, there's like was like one this winter where he is like, dad, I wanna go skiing. It's like, yes, I've been waiting for

this. Cool, let's go. I think that is one of the most. Special moments I felt as a dad for sure, is when it's like, yeah, I'm in the same boat. So primarily had spent most of my time climbing and I just remember, you know, sharing, uh, we stopped in Mount Shasta, which is one of my favorite places in, in California. And the mountain is so beautiful and just kind of sitting with my son and pointing out the route and, and just after that trip, he would just have these moments where he's like, oh, like tell me about Mount Chester. Like te, you know, just on his own unprompted. And it's like, okay, like, yeah dude, I'll, I'll tell you all about it. Like, and just that like pure enthusiasm and that unique connection you can have with something that you're excited about with them, where it's like, yeah, like, man, I hope you're into this, but I don't wanna push it too hard and push you out of this. But, uh, man, it sure would be cool if I could get on a peak with you someday, and I'm, I'm sure you feel that, you know, the same way about your voice. Oh yeah. When you're looking at, you know, two year old skiing, I, I've seen some kids that are skiing at a pretty like early age. Like how, what are your expectations of like a three-year-old skiing, like next ski season, is he gonna be pretty much able to get more downhill? Is he going downhill at all this year or?

Yeah, so I taught skiing for a number of years and I watched the parents that plugged them in at a very young age and mm-hmm. Uh, outside of like some certain, like fairly advanced developmental things, you're almost doing it to do it. Mm-hmm. Um, especially if you're plugging'em into lessons, right? Like there's, there's a understanding gap at two and at like one, and if you're doing it with, as a parent, I think there's some benefit there. There's some connection that, that seems positive. Mm-hmm. But for me, I was like, I next year, we'll, we'll get on the slopes. Hopefully we learn, you know, how to snowplow and wedge a little bit. Um, But I don't see like a meaningful, like, Hey, I want to go spend a big day until he is like four or five, just cuz I don't wanna push it. And also because a little selfishly, like I don't want to give up a full Saturday. Um, and knowing that my wife doesn't really want to go to the, the ski hill. Uh, for an extended period of time anyways, it's like, ooh. So next year, let's go Thursday nights, Friday nights, let's, mm-hmm. Let's go in the evening. We'll do it for an hour or two. It'll be a nice way to break up our week. And then he gets on some snow. But we're not committing, you know, either my ski day or our family day that we're usually doing something else. Um, To just this like 15 minute ski thing because dad likes to ski. So yeah. You got ways to like fit it in where it slots in that doesn't, is like not forced for the family, I

think. Sure. Yeah. I like that. I like that approach a lot. Yeah. Not forcing it. And, um, I like that you're balancing, making sure that like dedicated family days stay intact and like these would be, you know, add-on days that, that, uh, you know, you can make use of. So, uh, and I think it's right too, like, especially those early memories of like you mentioned, the, the hot chocolate, the opre ski, you know, hot chocolate and just being in the snow with dad and trying something new, like those are probably gonna be some pretty important memories that I'm sure they'll, they'll take with them. Um, any other things that come to mind logistically when it comes to like balance? I love that, that you were checking in before even specific terrains and, and you mentioned the inReach. The inReach being, uh, kind of a SAT phone you can use with your phone or just directly from the inReach. Um, anything else like logistic wise that you've found to be really helpful in terms of like your. Bigger objectives and kind of like setting the stage or checking in or anything that comes to mind there.

Yeah. Um, you know, doing enough prep time beforehand where I can give my wife a pretty good idea of what we're doing, whether that's showing or pictures or maps or things of that nature. An idea of how many days and like, here's what I have in mind for days for this trip. And she's like, well actually, when I have both kids, here's what I have in mind for the amount of days. And I go, oh, okay, well let's go back to the drawing board and see if, hey, this objective fits that timeline or, you know, can we speed it up or can I stretch it out, kind of thing. Um, and then another thing that was really has been really beneficial for our relationship, um, even before kids is as someone who wasn't a skier and having me be an avalanche terrain and having a close call or two with avalanches in one, in a fairly big way, um, she was very nervous about whenever I went into avalanche terrain and she went mm-hmm. And took a Level one course. Mm-hmm. Even as a non skier and helping her as she understood that terminology more, that helped a lot. So when I was going out on certain days, I could have a conversation about it. Hey, I'm going out. It's a green light day. I'm gonna be in some big terrain. Okay, you're in big terrain, but I understand it's fairly stable. Mm-hmm. Hey, I'm going out. It's a considerable day. It's an orange day or a red day. I'm gonna be on 15 degree bunny slopes. Touring through like basically flat ground, I'm not putting myself on or under avalanche terrain. Mm-hmm. Okay. That makes sense that you're going, where you're going on these days. And then if there's, you know, a time where I, she's not comfortable, she can voice it and she has, um, an understanding and a reason behind when she voices her concerns. So I think that's really important, meaningful for us.

That's great. I love that she took the course. Yeah. Cuz understanding the Abby, all the terminology and how they come to those conclusions on the forecasts and what that means. Yeah. That's, that's huge. And then also having somebody that you can sort of bounce, you know, the ideas off of, here's what I'm thinking, you know, what, what do you think? Um, I find that my wife is the ultimate, ultimate, best person to like, keep me in check where she's like, yeah, you shouldn't be doing that. I'm like, I, I thought that that might be what it is. I just needed somebody else to tell me I shouldn't be doing this. You, you mentioned having some kind of run-ins with an avalanche. Do you mind sharing a, the story about what happened? Sure. So

I have had some close calls. I've had two that were pretty minor. Um, both the minor ones was like swept off your feet, carried for. 20 feet or something. Right? Like I don't wanna downplay that cuz you shouldn't be getting caught. That's not a good thing to do. If that happens often, then your life expectancy drops drastically. Sure. But two fairly minor ones. And then my major one was on my first Denali trip, um, was skiing below the fixed lines trying to go check out rescue. Golly, ironically. Yeah. Um, got kind of complacent on the mountain. It's a big mountain. You spend a lot of day just in big terrain and all kinds of start to look like home. Right. And it's easy to get really complacent up there and had something break above me and a rope team before we got off the glacier. So we were all roped together. Um, came down, swept all three of us while we were roped together and took a thousand foot slide. And we're all partially buried. Uh, two of the climbers that were not actually part of my team, but I was roping up with to ski that day. Their trips were done. One was non-weightbearing, one was an alta ski patroller who after that was like shaken up and was like, yeah, I'm not climbing anymore. Like, I don't know how we missed that. Like we, we all have the background where we should have assessed that. Um, hindsight's 2020, but it was like, sure, yeah, there were some signs and we messed up. So that was the big one. I, I took a couple days off and ended up finishing that trip and summiting. But um, that was one that has stuck with me and this changed my risk tolerance as a person, like since that date. There was like, before that risk tolerance and then after that risk tolerance. Yeah.

Man, when things go south in the mountains, it happens so fast. You're in this like peaceful, serene environment. And especially in a place like Denali, I imagine it's just. A surreal moment just being there, you know, you're skiing and looking down at peaks that, you know, are like 14,000 foot peaks and, um, yeah. When it goes south, it goes south fast. I'm curious, what, what did you see in hindsight that was like a sign of like, ah, we shouldn't, we shouldn't have been there.

I mean, it was a, it, as I've gained more AVI knowledge and more distance, it's just like staring you in the face. Like we've had new snow like 36 hours prior and there was a wind event. Mm-hmm. Like X book, wind slab. Yeah. And it was like in a catcher's, MIT, in this one area that would've caught snow. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's sounding firm as you're going up and it's just like, no, I don't think it's hollow. I don't think it's, you know, and when you're playing this, I don't think, oh, it's not so bad that you're just gonna get yourself in trouble. Like, yeah. I'm now to the point where I pull the plug very easy on things. It's like, mm-hmm. Oh, there is some wind here like, All of my close calls have been wind related. I'm just out, I'm out on things that sound like it's wind board or wind effect. I'm just done. Yeah. You,

you mentioned, you know, your wrist tolerance has changed from, you know, the, it was different from that day on and I imagine it changes quite a bit becoming a dad. Like, I think I even remember I was on a climb. Nothing crazy, just, uh, I was on Rainier, uh, and we just hit this, first off, I got sick the day before we started climbing, so that wasn't helpful. And then, um, We just hit this massive heat wave, and it was weird early season, so like, it meant that none of the routes really went. And so we just kind of had to like barrel our way through whatever route went the best. Um, and so we're removing at a pretty, pretty fast pace. And I was sick, and so I started feeling extremely altitude sick, you know, 13 five almost to the Summit Ridge. And, um, my wife was just pregnant at the time, and I just remember how quickly I was like, n no, I'm, I'm done. Like, I'm not, whereas before, yeah, I would've pushed through. Yeah. You know, let's, let's keep, let's keep going. You suck it up, you know, it's not that it's not that dangerous, um, but everything on that climb, even just, you know, you, you have to c cross ladders over these krevas, like, which I was looking forward to, but then you're on it and you're like, what am I doing? Like this is, this is a little insane. And, and so now with two kids, you know, my risk tolerance is even more different and I feel it all the time. Can you tell me about an experience or you know, a time where you really felt that internal dialogue shift where it was like, man, before I might have been cool with this, but like, something is very different now.

One time that that's changed for me was actually ironically this last spring on Rainier as well. Uh, we were up there in May for a friend's birthday. Mm-hmm. And to speak to this kind of how rad this friend is, she's like, I want to go do Rainier in a day for my birthday. Uh, okay. Uh, when, and she's like, Tuesday and this is like, I'm in Anchorage getting ready to teach that Monday it's Sunday night. And she's like, do you think you can fly down here and be ready to go? It's like, sure. And so like flew down and we had like landed, picked up some supplies. We're sleeping in the parking lot. All right, let's go climb. Um, and so we leave super early in the morning, we're climbing and. We get up to about 12,000 feet. Um, and it's, there's enough wind where I was like, Hey, my old friend wind slab. And I was, it, I was shocked at how quick it was. All of a sudden I said, I'm done. I'm not going further. Mike, you guys are more than welcome to. I'm not gonna hold you back. Like, I would be excited if you topped out, but this is, I didn't realize it, but this is where my wrist tolerance ends and I need to go home to two kids. Mm-hmm. They're like, oh, I've never seen you so like adamant before and we've skied with you lot. And I was like, yeah, I'm kind of shocked, but like, I'm past the point of discussion. I'm now at my comfort zone. Like, yeah, I'm done.

Yeah, man, it's that, that, uh, just like we said, when things go south, it goes south fast. I think when that internal dialogue shifts with risk, it, it happens quick and you're like, no, like this is, it's just not my, not my day, like physically, mentally, especially on. A super glaciated peak with the wind and it get Yeah, your, your ex your, your history with wind slabs and then I just, the glaciers man. It's just, it's never a good spot to mess around on. But yeah, the internal dialogue shifts. H how do you think about risk now? Like, and how has that changed specifically even with the stuff that you would, you would do day-to-day, maybe before kids that maybe you look at now with like a different lens or maybe you have a more strict standard of like what the conditions need to be in order to send it?

I kind of wait for those green light conditions more now. Uh, it's, I did not ski anything bigger, meaningful, like the whole first part of this winter. Um, it wasn't a great winter up here anyways, but there was still plenty of people kind of pushing that and I just could not get to the point to justify it. So I think I'm now to the point where I'm fine taking, it's not risks like calculated, I guess. Right. As much as you can decrease the um, The possibility of something going south the better, right? Mm-hmm. So like, sure there's perceived risk, but what is the actual risk? Yeah. I don't mind doing things that are perceived risky if the actual risk is fairly low. And then my, my desire to do actual risky things is like super low at this point. Yeah. Like I've picked up mountain biking recently and I can't get past like, jumping very high or going very fast because like, there's actual risk versus like people like, oh, you're skiing fast and jumping off things. I'm like, well, I've done that for 20 years. I know conditions. There's a perceived risk, but that's not an actual, like yeah, the risk is not as great if you have that experience. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. I, I really relate to that. The experience makes a huge difference. And it's hard too, cuz I think especially anytime you're in the mountains, there's like, I don't know where you would call'em, like arm share quarterbacks, or, I know every time you see a climbing accident, you know, invariably if you go to the comment section on something, it's a lot of critiques about how unnecessarily risky that endeavor was. Right. Why were they doing that? What were they thinking? And it's, it's, I remember this Alex Hon quote where they talk about, and granted free solo was like, absolutely insane. The ultimate risky, no one should do that. Um, but he had this question posed to him of like, how do you think about risk? Like people say it's extremely risky for you to do these things. And he is like, well, it's extremely risky for some dude just, just off the couch to go try them, I'm sure. But like, it's much less risky for me to go do these things because I, I've been doing this my entire life. And I think that's where I think a lot of the experience comes in, like you said, to where it's like, well, no, like the experience carries a lot of weight when I'm. Evaluating risk, but it's, it's certainly still, you know, changes things as as, as we progress. But, uh, it's a, it's a hard topic and, and one I find myself kind of constantly pondering, especially as objectives get a little bit bigger and a little bit more complex. Like, how, how do you think about, even as your kids get older, do you feel like your risk tolerance would stay where it is now or get, get a little bit lower? Like where, where's your head on that? It's

probably gonna get lower. Like, I see a decrease in like, to be Frank Fitness, I'm gonna get older. Right. And if I can't do things in the time or in the manner that I like, I can do them now or even previously, then yeah, it becomes more risky and so therefore like the activities will probably change. Yeah. Right. Like if I know I can air, you know, air this cliff or jump this thing or do this in the X amount of hours, but I can't as I get older, well that'll change pretty drastically. Um, And then I just think maybe a desire, I don't know, like I used to really thrive off that adrenaline, like really, really thrive off of it, probably to an unhealthy standpoint. Like throwing my body around multiple surgeries, kind of didn't care. Um, I've got cooler things at home now, so like mm-hmm. I like, I do like the feeling of accomplishment, nailing some cool peak, but it, I think it comes back to like where it changes, where it doesn't have to be the gnarliest peak. Right. Is it an accomplishment for you? Kind of doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. I've, it's taken me a while past 30 to realize no one really cares what you're doing. Yeah. Like from a cool standpoint, you know, there's some people like, oh, that was rad, but like, no one cares as much as you do. Right. So, like, you better be happy with what you're doing and be able to look at yourself at the end of the day. If like something goes sideways, can you justify it to yourself and your family because Yeah, they, they're the only ones that are really gonna care at the same level that you do.

Yeah, absolutely. How has that changed for you? Because that, that, I agree with that sentiment. Where I remember when I first started getting into stuff like this, you know, I came from like a very traditional sports background, and so I, I really took it with like the most like bro mindset where it was like, oh, I'm gonna crush this peak. Or like, it was just like pushing as hard as you can. And then I remember, I don't know if it was like this Reinhold Messner quote where he talked about climbing is like an artistic expression and I just like, it was such a foreign concept, but the more I did it, and especially after having kids, the more I was like, oh, that's absolutely what it is for me, is it's like, it's this internal like artistic expression in the pureness of style with which I climb. Like, can my route and my line be so clean and be right to the edge of where risk is to show how much control I am. That it, that's, that, it's, somebody would look back at it and be like, man, that was a beautiful line that you drew there, man. The, the footwork was just so clean. And I remember even watching guys like Mark Andre Lale un unfortunately, you know, he took it a little, little too far, but you watch those, those clips of him climbing and it's just, it is beautiful. It is just such a beautiful expression of what the sport can be like. How has that shifted for you, going from like the adrenaline aspect to more of like, Fulfillment in a different way.

Yeah. So I've always approached it from a, like, what can I physically do? And that's how I, like, I was a little bit more of the traditional sports too, till I got to college and take that mentality of how, and I think I still think this way, like an athlete, an athlete is someone who's like the physical peak of their sport and like, I don't qualify for that. But that's how I approached it, right? Like, I need to be the either the fastest up or the fastest down or the biggest air. Mm-hmm. Um, and for me it changed when I realized that I was not going to be the fastest down or the biggest air. The world is full of insane athletes. And so then it became, okay, so how can I push my own self and my biggest competitor is me. Mm-hmm. So like, what can my body do physically? And then if I don't accomplishment, the only one I can. You know, hold accountable as myself. So it's like, mm-hmm. Hey, can I do 30 miles and 10,000 feet in a day? Is that something I can do at my training level? And then like when you, you do it, it's like this really rewarding feeling. So I still enjoy the adrenaline, but instead of getting my fulfillment out of like doing something that will potentially hurt me, it's like, okay, I'm gonna push that body toward the absolute limit, but before it gets hurt. Okay, well, we'll call it quilts. Yeah. And there's, it's a lot more sustainable approach, um, especially these like endurance sports versus, you know, throwing yourself off the biggest thing you can find.

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. It's, it's much more sustainable. You can, you can ski well into your, your ladder years if you, uh, if you don't keep doing back flips and, and gnarly stuff like that. So, I know we have just a couple minutes left. Um, you know, I, I know that you had talked a bit about, uh, you know, goals and goal setting. Um, do you have a, like, do you, how, how do you think about goals for you? Like, do you think about it in terms of, okay, this year, this season, these are the stuff I want to get to. Is it something that's like really thought out well in advance, or is it something that just kind of more comes to you as the year or the season unfolds? Like how, how do you think about what you want to do next? Sure.

So as far as like what's next, it's d like we've got a a, I just got a list of peaks in my notes on my phone. Like you just keep adding to the list. Yeah. And that list never gets smaller. It's outta control at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, but you, it doesn't work if you're just like, I'm gonna go do this on this day because I want to. That's just not how nature works. So I, I like to keep the big list and then check what conditions they're doing and then see what pair the two up, like what the conditions allow to do, and then what does my own schedule allow me to do. So it's this big puzzle, like what's the family doing? What's the weather doing? What's the AVI conditions doing? What's my fitness doing? And then, okay, which of these objectives fit that puzzle? Okay, cool. And then that gets you a try. That doesn't even get you like name. Yeah. That gets you a try. So there's a lot of like misses, there's a lot of going for something and not getting it. And I think that's really humbling. Especially like when you are. Not just going out and skiing for a fun ski day, which a lot of people just go ski powder cuz it's fun and really enjoyable. But if you're trying to do a specific thing, that's where I think you get a lot of reward cuz you have to line up so many different things and then when it hits, like you're hitting the jackpot, it's a little bit like gambling. You're like, yeah, I got it. Cool. Yeah,

I love that. Yeah. The triangulation of resources. Okay, I can do this and this day and these, okay. Yeah. And then I'll swing at it a couple times, knock it off and then yeah. That, that self-satisfaction from it. I, I do wanna honor you cuz as much as you say you're not an athlete, you're not doing big things. I think you're doing incredible things and I love that you're doing it with two kids and a family and a full-time job. Um, I mean, it's one of the things that really motivates me to continue to push and, and grow as a dad myself, are seeing guys like you that are doing this and um, you know, really continuing to pursue passions in a healthy way, bringing family into the mix, um, and doing it for. Right reasons. Like I love hearing all the reasons that go into how you think about things in terms of risk and objectives. And so, um, I do wanna honor you with that. I'm curious, you know, there's a lot of people that'll be listening that are coming from various backgrounds that aren't climbers and skiers. Um, but I think a lot of the lessons that you've learned and can share kind of transcend sport. If you had any parting wisdom for folks, whether it be how they show up with their kids, how they strike a balance, how they continue to pursue passions over the years, what, what are things that come to mind that might be helpful?

Sure. So I, I'm just doing my best when it comes to being a dad, right? I'm new at this. There's plenty of dads that have done it longer, so I'm gonna probably. Foot mine more towards the passion side because I'm not gonna try to tell someone who has an eight year old how to dad. That's ridiculous. I'm just figuring it out. Um, but some just general things that help me, like either in my ski prep or as we've had hard days with the kiddos is I kind of got a couple sayings. Most of'em are pretty goofy, but one I got from college was pma. Like on the expedition trip we had was positive mental attitude. It's a choice. Like you can be grumpy about a situation or you can sit down, think about it and say, okay, this is why I'm grumpy. Like let's go. Positive mental attitude. And you can fake it. You can fake it a little bit and you know you're faking it. But positivity is a mindset. So that's one that I always, pma, pma, pma. Um, another abbreviation big on abbreviations. Um, It's a kind of joking one with me and a buddy who are both dads and we try to train, but you know, it's hard so we just, we always say a b t always be training and it's kind of a joke cuz we're actually rarely in the gym training like super hard. But we're out on a random run after work or we're going, we're sneaking in a ski tour and we're both sucking wind because we didn't sleep last night cuz of the kids. And you just say a B T, AB b t always be training. So anything that's kind of hard, just always be training and you know with a kid you're changing the blowout diaper for the fist time and you're just like always be training, just training for another diaper blowout. So yeah, I love that. Um, and then, The last one, and it's probably my favorite, is just embrace the suck. Mm-hmm. Like things in life can suck. Whether it's weather on top of a mountain, like I spent 10 days in a tent on my second Denali trip and didn't summit and then just came home and it was, it was awful. But you just smile and play a lot of monopoly deal and you hang out with friends and you're just like, yeah, it sucks. Oh well, Mike, yeah. Deal with it.

And I love that. I think there's something to be said about that, where you're choosing the suck. Cuz life invariably is gonna suck. Yeah. It's gonna hit you. So if we can choose some of that suffering up front, we're gonna be so much more prepared for when it sucks, when it, when it wasn't our choice. But, and I think those expressions go a long way. There's a, this, uh, altitude runner who has one where it's sucking and it's always like, uh, you know, hey, it's all good mental training. And I think about that too, when it's like one in the morning with a diaper blowout and I'm exhausted. I'm like, Hey, this is kind of like I'm up for summit day. You know, I'm gonna be tired and nauseous and doing stuff when I'm doing, it's all practice, baby. So I think, I think all the, uh, late nights, uh, with kids certainly help mountain folk quite a bit. But Eric, man, this has been so, so, uh, valuable and I'm so grateful for your time. And, uh, thank you so much for coming on and parting some wisdom. I hope the rest of ski season is great for you and, uh, hope you get a lot of time with the kiddos out here, this beautiful spring. And, um, yeah man, looking forward to continuing to follow the journey. Thanks,

Ben.

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